- So many homeowners at the start of their process of renovations ask us the question, should they start with the designer first or the builder first? And there's lots of things to consider. So today we're gonna talk about the role the designer plays in relation to the builder and the importance of that relationship. So we're also gonna look at the importance of plans and documentation and getting that right before we start a renovation. So I'm Louise from Perway. And in this episode today, we are welcoming Bronwyn from Bronz DC. So welcome, Bronwyn. So Bronwyn's a multi-talented person, in that she's a specialist interior designer, a residential building designer, and a specialist building consultant. So thanks so much for joining us today, Bronwyn, and we'd love you to tell us a bit about yourself and about Bronz DC.

- Lovely, thank you, Louise. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yes, so I've been always interested in design and officially made my move into the design industry back in 2014 when I was working for a new home builder. And I very quickly realized that there was a disconnect between client's expectations and what a builder delivers, and to no fault of either. It's just there's so many moving parts. And so, through my career working for new home builders and then renovation company, and then doing my own design, I really have found a desire to want to help people manage the entire process, manage the entire journey really to bridge the gap between that disconnect between the client, what the client expects, and what the builder's gonna deliver, and hopefully give them a great experience in the meantime. So yeah, I've covered renovations, new homes, energy efficient focus, everything from heritage to new. So yeah.

- No, very good.

- A little bit of experience.

- So today, Bronwyn, we wanted to really delve into the roles of a builder and a designer and really how they sort of should link up. We know that a builder and designer hold very different roles in the design and construction process. We think that a designer can extract someone's ideas and get that down on paper, whereas the builder then is there to really work out the constructability of a project and advise on costs. We know there's a lot more to it. So do you wanna delve in and let us know then what your thoughts are and what designers really do?

- Yeah, absolutely. I think everybody looks at a designer and goes soft pillows and chooses colors. And yes, we get to do all of that fun stuff as well, and that is the fun bit, but there's a lot to it, a lot more to it than that behind the scenes as well. And so, typically, I don't wanna generalize too much because you're always gonna have a builder or a trade that is creative and can problem solve and come up with some really cool ideas as well. And you're gonna have a designer that has a good construction head on them as well. But typically, if you look at their role individually, a designer is the creative mind. They're the one that builds the rapport with the client and really gets connected to what they need from their project, and like you say, extracts that information from them, and then creates the vision working with the clients. So some designers might, be engaged to actually come up with design completely, while other designers or the homeowners rather would wanna work with the designer to sort of grow and evolve their own ideas. And so, the design role is to do both, depending on what the client needs. And so once the idea has come to fruition and we know what we wanna do, then the builder's role is to obviously build that idea and to bring it to life. But there's a bit that's in the middle where they need to work together because quite often the designer will design something not really understanding what's involved from a construction perspective, and there lies a little bit of a disconnect. And so it's kind of like a prayer and a hope that the client can build what they wanna build, what has been designed, to their budget, or can actually be done full stop. And so the builder's role then is to identify, right, this is what we need to do. How are we gonna build it? How much is it gonna cost? And then, obviously, to execute on that plan as well. In a nutshell, that's sort of the two roles defined if you like, but many crossing paths in the middle as well.

- Yes. And that's what we... We have a lot of homeowners that when they first approached us, they say, they've asked the question, "Should I get the designer first or should I get the builder first, or where should I go?" And our advice is really engage both designer and the builder together from the beginning. And it's really for that purpose. They're quite individual in what they do and what they can advise on. But if they work together, we get them the clarity and the expectations that will come with that. And if you have the designer, and the builder, and the homeowner all sitting at a round table from the get go, everybody understands what's required and they understand the homeowner's concerns, their wants, their aspirations, and their dreams. The designer then can advise, okay, as you said, they can advise upon a design or if the homeowner has that idea already, they can expand upon that. The builder then is able to sit down and say, "Look, well, that's not going to work because of this specific wall or this construction method." So the designer is there to think, "okay, well, that's not gonna work, let's change that." Or, potentially if the homeowner has these wonderful ideas, but they're going to blow their budget, the builder is there to be able to advise, "Well, look, that's going to be X, Y, and Z cost, and that's going to blow what you're able to do." So there and then, the designers is able to say, "Okay, well, we can advise to change it this way or that way to be able to give a really good outcome from the get-go. It's at that point that can lead to a really great experience for a build or renovation for a homeowner. And whereas, we've had other customers that have come to us with pre-designed plans and there's hasn't been a collaboration. It's either that they're actually we're not able to build or renovate to the plans that are created because there could be... It could be a hundred, 200,000 above their actual budget or there's actual flaws in their constructability side of things that isn't able to... The build is not able to go ahead or the renovation is not able to go ahead. So the poor homeowner is left in a position where they have to either redo their whole plans to be able to get it done to the budget or else they have to scrap the idea. I think, in our opinion anyway that it's definitely a great way to start a renovation, by engaging both the designer and the builder from the get go.

- 100%. I mean so many times I've had clients come into one of my previous workplaces where I've actually worked for the builder, and I've sat down with them, and they've presented their plans. And they've spent thousands of dollars on these architectural drawing plans. And look, it looks phenomenal, but when I've had a closer look at it, I've actually gone, in some instances, "That's not compliant. We can't get that through council. This is a real rabbit warren. It's doubled the size of your existing home, which is gonna then be double what your expected budget is." And to be honest, it's not the best outcome because there's just been a super disconnect. If I can think of a really simple example, let's take a bathroom, and let's say you are sitting down at a round table with the client, the designer, and the builder. I think it's all about empowering the client. And so, if the client was to say, or if the designer was to say, "I think we should tile to ceiling, it's gonna look really elegant if we can go to ceiling with the tile height." And the client goes, "Yes, that sounds fantastic. Let's do that." The builder can go... It's not about the builder necessarily saying, "Yes, we can," or "No, we can't." I think it's everybody's job as professional work designer and builder to be able to give the client information and then let them make the choice. So the builder might then be able to go, "Well, look, if we tiled to door height, then we don't touch the ceiling. And you're still gonna get a bit of height out of the bathroom tiling. But if we were to tile to ceiling, what that means is all this ornate cornicing that you've got up there has to come down. And when that comes down, we might actually damage a little bit of the ceiling. So there's potential for the ceilings to have to be replaced as well. So yes, we can do it, but understand that by doing that, there's gonna be a little bit more construction work involved, and therefore the budget's gonna increase. What would you like to do?" So I think it's about really empowering the client by giving them that sort of information right at the start, so they're making informed decisions from the get go and it's not a surprise when get to quoting stage.

- Yes, yes, exactly. It's our mission within Perway even to educate clients, to allow them then to make those informed decisions along the way. That leads to a better experience. As you said, there's no surprises throughout the build. Or even, excuse me, when it does come to that quoting stage, that the homeowner is aware of, "Okay, well, this is we allowed for it. This is what it could potentially cost." If those things are actually finalized or clarified before even it gets to that stage, the budget then should be in line with their expectations because those decisions would've already been made prior to the detailed proposal or quotation even being created because decisions would have been made and allowances acknowledged as well at that early stage.

- That's right. And I think as well because you're then empowering the client with a little bit of construction knowledge along the journey, if it were to get to a point where you give them their overall quote and it is sitting higher than what they were wanting to pay, they then feel that they're more comfortable to say, "Well, we understand why that costs this much. We understand how that's evolved. And so, I feel comfortable knowing that I can then reduce the tile height," if we go back to that previous example, "because I know how that's pumped that up." So I think the shock or the way that they manage that final pricing becomes a lot easier for everybody involved because the client has felt a part of it as they... They're part of the process. I always say I'm not designing for my client. I'm designing with my clients. And for that very reason, it's their house. They have to make the decisions. You're just there to feed them the information help them along the way.

- Exactly. So just to actually summarize on that, so I've got a few, just a few reasons why it's a good idea to work with a builder and designer from the beginning. So you'll have a design which will be more certain about your cost and your time. And the final plans will actually be able to be created and built. There are great ideas shared even between the professionals and the homeowner. That teamwork approach from the beginning is built on trust, and it makes the process more enjoyable. You get the best out of your time and you monitor investment as well because... I think what a lot of homeowners in the renovation process that we've experience, they have been really frustrated at a lot of backwards and forwards, and conversations, and that disjointed link between the builder and the designer, and from them as well. So if everyone's on the same page from the beginning, it just allows for time as well, because there's not that as much backwards and forwards between everyone to find out what the decision should be, so that frustration as well.

- That's a huge point, Louise. Time is really important. And people, you gotta remember, the client actually has no idea what the timeline is. And because we do it all the time, we kind of have a mental picture and estimating this much in lead time, product ordering, this much in construction. And you wanna make it as easy as possible for the clients. So you're sort of not giving them all that information at the start because you don't wanna overload them. But really, they don't always know what's coming. And so, it's up to us to sort of help manage that. And so, time I think is a sneaky one because people always think they've got heaps of time until they don't. And so I think time is one of those ones where the client doesn't realize how important it is until they've not got it anymore. And so, if you are losing time in the front end because you've gone to just a designer or just a builder, and then need to back pedal... Time is money as well. If you're in the middle of a renovation and you're renting somewhere else or whatever it might be, that's costing you money at the end of the day. Or if you have to redo work that could have been done for cohesively at the start, I think that's a really valid point.

- So the other things that I just wanna summarize as well was the builder will be involved from the beginning and can advise on where the design can adopt improvements. That will be either simpler or save time and to be more efficient. The builder overseeing the work from the initial concept. So it's really good because if you're getting an opportunity, and this is speaking from the builder side of things, you're getting an opportunity to work in and be able to trust that builder from the beginning, and establish what type of relationship that you're gonna have. You're gonna be able to identify what, where that builder works, the communication levels. Because you're still not at the point where you have to engage that builder to actually do that work for you. So you've still got the opportunity to bail if you want or preferably hopefully everything's worked out to engage them because you've already established that bit of a relationship. And that's really good for the builder also because the concept and the design is not new to them. So they are not starting on a blank page just starting off with just look at the design. They've been involved from the beginning. They know what's in front of them. And so that planning and the actual construction process, and the whole renovation side of things will really run a lot smoother. So that's another thing to consider. So the process overall will be simplified and more efficient. And yeah, so that's really the, the top summarised points from that. You mentioned there a little while back there, Bronwyn, about documentation and identifying things that, the selections from the client and what should be brought into the next stage of the renovation. So we know that, for example, drawings are kind of the universal language of the professionals involved within a build or a renovation. There's kind of a communication tool that is there to describe how the construction will occur. The ideas from the client have been put down onto paper, and then the selections have been chosen and the builder is able to read from that as well. So it's kind of, yeah, a good communication tool, and it describes what you really want your renovation or home to look like. The drawings control what it will look like, and that's in addition to selections and things that you've made along the way. So how would you describe? What would you do to elaborate on that, the importance of drawings, plans, specifications, and things like that, Bronwyn?

- Yeah. Yeah. It's a massive component of the process 100%, and something that some people even try to gloss over and get away with not doing, but that's when you're setting yourself up to have massive issues on site. It really is about communicating the intention at every stage of the process. So initially, it's a way that the designer can communicate their ideas in their head with the client to see if the client, if it's what they are expecting, or perhaps present a new idea to them that they hadn't thought or considered yet. So there's that sort of stage one. We call that concept design. So I think what's an interesting point to make is that I feel a lot of the time the homeowner thinks it's just one set of drawings. And you design, you build. That sort of how they look at the design and the builder. We get this designed and you build it, but it's not quite as clear cut as that. And depending on the size of your project, even if it was a standalone bathroom renovation, it still wouldn't just be design build. It would be design, show the client, make tweaks, get the builder involved. Can we do this, yes, no? Maybe first round of quoting. Okay, now that we know what we can build is around the ballpark, then we go into selections, then we fine tune the design, present. Do we like it? Yes. Okay, Now we're ready to work these up for construction to a high level of detail, then to the builder. And that's just for a standalone bathroom or kitchen renovation. If it's then our whole home, we've got a few more steps in there, possibly the council process and the interim as well, plus engineering and all sorts of bits and bobs. So there is multiple levels of documentation and it's quite often a staged process. And that's to not only make compliancy along the way, but also if you're breaking it down like that, then again, it benefits the client because they get to go, they get to make tweaks along the way, and they also get to see it growing and evolving and understand the process as well. So essentially, by the time you get to construction, yes, you have one final set of working documentation. And in that documentation, you would expect a full set of working drawings with full plans, electrical plans, mechanical plans, elevations of either the outside, or the inside, or both, depending on the project, site plans. And then to accompany that is then your selections documentation, selections and specifications. And that's then going this wall is that color, this is the toilet we've chosen, this is the tapware, this is what we're painting this, this is what the joinery is made for, all of that sort of thing, down to the doorhandles. And so that's to accompany the plans. Because if you had all of that information on the construction drawings, can you imagine how tricky that would be for the trades to try and read? We need to split that up a little bit. And not everything's relevant to everybody as well. So you'll have sentences in the documentations that will go to council, get the first round of approvals, and then they'll go off to engineering. Then you're gonna have engineering reports and all of that as well. So there's a lot of documentation. And for the client's perspective, it's well worth investing in a designer who's gonna pull all of that together for you and walk you through that process in conjunction with the builder who's also gonna be able to give you interim quotes perhaps along the way, so that you can put the brakes on at any stage and go, "Oh, hang on, this is starting to get a bit bigger than what we had anticipated." Back to concept design, so we can rework this before we sign our contract, entering too deep.

- Yes, yes. And I think it's a really... Another interesting point on that as well, Bronwyn, is one of our philosophies within our business is that we want our clients to know exactly what they're going to get and exactly what it's gonna cost before you start the renovation because all too often people, whenever those things aren't specify documented and it comes to the construction stage and clients thought, "Oh, well, actually, I didn't choose that specific toilet. This was the allowance that was made in the contract for a $500 toilet, but now in fact they actually want the $1000 Caroma special flush toilet. And it's the expectations then as well. Whereas, if that's all being documented, and discussed, and communicated throughout the pre-construction phase, so when you come to the quotations and that finalization of any documentation in particular, the specifications, everyone knows and everyone's on the same page of what's gonna be included in that job. So it eliminates then the consequence of variations or any surprises throughout the job, which homeowners can encounter a large cost and totally blow their budget out. So it's really important to get these things documented and correct before rushing into signing the contract and starting the job as well.

- Absolutely. And it goes deeper than, "Oh, that's not the toilet I choose." That's definitely one component of it. The client needs to know that they've sat on that toilet, and then they're happy with the seat, and that it's comfortable. But also, if it's left as an allowance, or even if the client changes their mind, what you need to be aware of is that every toilet model was different. And so, if you're doing an extension which has got new first fix plumbing going in it, or if you're dealing, even worse, if you're dealing with existing plumbing, then a certain toilet might not fit with the certain plumbing that's there at the moment or the way that it's being built. And by the time you try to do that during second fix, it's too late. So you can't just pop over the toilet necessarily. You actually have to work the whole under-floor. You've poured concrete. That's gonna be an expensive task. So it's also crucial that all of those decisions are made and made confidently. And that's where that documentation plays a role. Because if you've got a good looking selection sheet, it's gonna have the name and model of the toilet. I'm rolling with the toilet 'cause that's what we're talking about. It could be anything.

- Toilets are a thing today here.

- Everybody's got a toilet in the house. It's a very crucial bit of equipment, one of the most important fixtures in the home. So yeah, rolling with the toilet, we need to have the name and model of the toilet. We need to have potentially even a picture of what it is. I think that's the best way to communicate it with the client. And then all of the specification details for the trades. They set out the toilet waste. Where's the water inlet coming from? All of that kind of thing, installation instructions and manuals. So everybody's got what they need.

- Yeah. That's a great point, but look, yeah, I think that it's just important for people to understand this, so that they can make the informed decisions and they can be educated in that process because as we talked about the time factor earlier, I think that when homeowners approach us, they say, "Oh, we want our renovation to start next month." You think any builder that's able to do that, I don't know him. A hero, but there is a lot of effort to be put into the forefront of anything, because you want to get it right, you want to be on the right front starting the renovation. And having those documents, the plans, and the specifications... Everything's checked and everything's correct so that it just avoids frustration per renovation process and experience. You wanna be able to enjoy renovation. If you are comfortable and confident in what you are getting and everything that's been captured in the detail prior to the contract being signed and prior to that construction work happening, it allows for a great experience for the client I think.

- Yeah, absolutely. If you want your construction to go smoothly, it's really worth investing time in the front and in the planning stages, and making sure that you are thoroughly going over all of your documentation as well. And from a client's perspective, don't be afraid to ask a question. If you don't know what that means, question it. It might be a simple answer or it might uncover something deeper that'd be amiss. So it's really important to keep that connection lines between the client, the designer, the builder.

- Yes, no, exactly.

- And between the builder and the designer.

- That's it. Bronwyn, is there anything else that you would like to add to our conversation today?

- Look, just to emphasize the relationship between the designer and the builder, yes, there's certainly multiple ways to go about a project, and there's a lot of different business models out there. You can understand it gets quite confusing for the homeowner. But if you can find a good working relationship between the designer and a builder, then I think you're gonna be onto a winning combo because really it's gonna get the best outcome for you. That might be under one umbrella. The you might have a design construct service, or that might be two parties working together closely. There's no better or worse. There's pros and cons to everything of course, but I think, yeah, finding a winning combination of design and builder is definitely gonna get you the best outcome in the long run. And more often than not, it's actually gonna be more cost effective for you in the long run as well.

- I agree.

- Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed our chat.

- Thank you so much, am today as well. If someone wanted to contact you, Bronwyn, to find you, where could they have a look?

- Yeah, lovely, thank you. We are building a website at a moment, so it's not quite live yet, but I'll let you know when it does. But you can keep up with me and follow the business grow and evolve on Instagram, Bronz DC, and on Facebook, Bronz Designs and Consultancy.

- Fabulous. Thank you so much.

- Send me a message. I'm happy to answer questions at any stage.

- Anyways, Bronwyn, thanks so much for joining us today, and we look forward to have another chat again someday.

- Excellent, I look forward to it. Thanks, Louise.

- All right.