- When we started to doing the initial meetings too Joel and asking clients about what peed you off about your last renovation. And then they're like, 'Oh, the builder came in with a big variation at the end, and then they hit us with a big bill.' And what we're trying to do here is sit down first in the initial meeting and learn everything about your musts, wants, everything that we can find out. then we try to find out the budget, Joel. As you know, we believe there's two budgets. And then from there, then we come to site, we do a site visit, see from my eyes and my experience. Some clients want an onsite estimate there and then. But we can't really do that because the last thing Joel, we want to do is upset people, then give them a price, it can disappoint them and then when we do a detail proposal of the whole job. we give that estimate on site and then we do a detail proposal and it's over the budget, they can come back and go 'Well Andy you said this', we don't like to do that. So that's what we're doing over here, Joel. I think you're on the same par as us. How are you finding that system of doing the detailed proposal, then bringing it back to the clients and showing them what you've done and that's on their list?

- Yeah, I'm just going to go back to what you're talking about with the onsite estimate. So many people ask, you know can you just give us the budget cost? And for certain things I can, you know, roughly looking at it, you know, X amount for, especially bathrooms, like bathrooms are pretty similar. It normally just comes back to selections but I'd normally just say to people, especially with big renos and extensions and whatever else. And it's like, I pretty much end up with the question now, do you want me to give you a figure that makes you happy? Or do you want me to give you a figure that's disappointing because either I'll end up switching, you know I can say X amount and I know a lot of people are trying to like, they don't do it all the time so they really just want to know figure that sometimes be able to figure out like can we even actually afford it? Like, is it going to be possible without going through the whole planning and drafting stage and everything? Like, can we just have a ballpark? And you know, I think at the moment, Quadrio on this, on another podcast about this and you know, how can a builder give a price without plans? Like we just can't do it. Like, it's just like trying to play a game of soccer without the soccer ball. Like, you know, it's just, there's too many factors, there's too much stuff. Its all the engineering, you know, there's everything just so many cogs that have gotta be turning all together that for it to all align and then, you know all your selections, like selections can vary phenomenally,

- You can a tap for 100 bucks, you can buy a tap for 800 bucks.

- Yeah. Like it's just, you know, like the best part I like is when you give them the selections what they've picked on the quote and they go, 'Oh I might have to rethink what I've picked' like they've picked $8,000 worth of selections for their bathroom and they haven't even paid for any labor yet.

- I know.

- And a lot of people think that it's going to be cost them $10,000 to do a bathroom reno.

- I know.

- And they see that and they're like, 'Oh maybe I was being a little bit optimistic'.

- Yeah.

- And like it's understandable, like people talk to people and they go and that's only $10,000 until I talk to someone that's actually gone through it, and they're like, 'Oh right.' So there's a lot of what's the word, sort of not miscommunication, but a lot of I guess, fibs or what goes on with people and charging and how costings work and all that sort of stuff, and it just varies so much.

- Have you had any experience exactly like that, that someone came into you and said we've 100 grand and when you started pricing it was nearly double it or even 50 grand more?

- Yeah, I think this is a really good question to ask, if someone's going through this process and they've had a quote done or proposal done by someone. If someone asks you, what are you getting for that you should be able to go, blah, blah, blah. And outlay all that information that builder has told you and go, this is what we exactly what we're getting. Where I find it, a lot of people will just go, 'Oh not sure to be honest with you he just gave us the quote and do this on the plan.' Like, like ask yourself the question. Do, you know exactly what you're getting? Like, you know, if someone asks you if there are floor to ceiling tiles, yes or no? Like what type of tap are you getting? 'Oh, here', you know, what type of decking materials is it? Is it getting squared or is it like, what type of roofing material is? Does it have insulation, have you got all the paint included? Like all this sort of question like you should be able to get the proposal and look at that and go, 'Oh yep, there it is there'. 'Oh yeah. we've got a niche in the bathroom, yes it is floor to ceiling tiles, you're going to have a skip bin on site.' Like all that, just that sort of stuff that, you know, not not a lot of people, like I think probably 80% of the people going through renovation process, when you ask the question would be like, especially when they're getting a few quotes it's 'yeah not a hundred percent sure' It's just materials, labor, renovation as per plan.

- Yeah. I think we don't send the quotes out anymore, Joel, because we like to sit down with clients and tell them exactly what you're getting. Because if you would send your detail proposal to a client, straight away a clients will go straight to the bottom and see how much it's worth and what it's going to cost and stuff like that from my experience, but when I bring the proposal out and I sit down for nearly 90 minutes and go through every item line item by line item, people like, ' Oh shit I can actually see how much information and all of this stuff that's involved, in this renovation'. And I find this that works very well. Sure you have nothing to hide you're going to show them, the price anyway at the end and then let them know at the start, then start breaking it down. If it's too high, you can actually go, 'okay, how would you feel? And it's easy to take stuff off then after that if they want.

- Just being open and honest and I think finding the best way, you know, some people ask 'can you give me a breakdown of cost?' And they go 'no!'

- Yeah.

- Straightaway you go, 'what are you hiding?'

- Yeah.

- Like, why can't you show me every line item? If someone wants every line item I'll go, 'Here's the cost of every single line item. Here is our margin percent', because you know, that margin is not a mark-up. So, you know, like every business deserves to make a profit. But that markup is like not markup it's project management. Like you're paying for someone to manage that job and put their labor and experience and knowledge and everything into that and make sure you get a good experience. They can schedule trades in, you know, and and that comes at a cost, Like everything else does.

- Yeah.

- Honesty, I think is a really good relationship, to start with the builder. Like, finding that out with them from the start, before you start.

- Yeah. Because if there's no honesty there, Joel, it's not good to start, you know.