A Vital Guide to Choosing Your Windows & Doors with Oknalux

Perway Construction Services
November 11, 2021
- There's many things to consider when you're choosing the right windows and doors for your home. So whether you're renovating or building a new house, there's lots of things to consider. So I'm Louise from Perway and today we're welcoming James all the way from Adelaide and James works for Oknalux in South Australia. So it's a globally recognized double and triple glazed window and doors company. So thanks very much for joining us today James and join us with the Perway community. So, and just first of all, I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about yourself and Oknalux.

- Sure. Well, thank you for the opportunity to be able to have a bit of a chat. I've been working with Oknalux for about six years or so now. And the word Oknalux actually is a derivative of a Polish word. So the word okna means windows in Polish and the word lux obviously for luxury. So ultimately, our name means Polish luxury windows. Reason that we're in business is purely to create comfort. High-performance windows and double glazed or triple glazed windows at a high level of comfort. if reducing noise and making it more comfortable because less temperature variations and that's ultimately why we do what we do. Real passion is really around education and that's obviously why we're having a chat now. For me to be able to add some value to you and ultimately, to people that you interact with so that you then have the opportunity when you are making decisions on windows that you can make an educated decision.

- Yeah, definitely informed is the best way for people to make their choices and to purchase. Obviously, when people are with us homeowners are renovating, but whether they're renovating or building a new home and they're choosing windows and doors, what things should people really take into consideration when they are making those choices?

- First thing that I would definitely recommend is to ignore the glass when it comes to the window. And the reason I say that is because most companies when they're talking about windows will literally say get this type of glass, get this glass, get that glass. But ultimately, having conversation around glass is halfway through the conversation. The conversation needs to start at the beginning and the beginning comes down to the frame. What is the frame made of? But more than that, does the frame seal properly? 'Cause ultimately, it all comes down to drafts. And we could have some great performing windows. However, if the window is still technically open when it should be closed, because it doesn't seal properly who cares what type of glass you've got in there?

- Yeah, it's not gonna be effective then.

- So the conversation has to start at the beginning and the beginning is, does the window frame seal properly? 'Cause you could even have single glazed windows. The windows are sealed, you're still gonna get great performance from them.

- Is there specific frame types that suit specific types of builds I suppose or other materials that are surrounding that frame?

- This there's multiple different frame types and ultimately, all of them have great both domestic and commercial applications. So there's really going to be conversation around not so much if one is better in a specific design but more so around is one gonna be performing better and is one going to be more economical? For us, for example we have four different types of frames. We have timber frames as mentioned. We have aluminum frames, but our aluminum frames are thermally broken aluminum frames which are a little bit different. And then we have PVC frames and we have also a combination of aluminum and timber in one. And it might be easier if I show you what that looks like over here. So see, these are some of the frames that we have available to us. And each of them, let's assume that all of them seal properly 'cause if they do seal properly, then we can start discussing, and I might be able to turn myself off here so you can see a little bit better. We've got standard conventional aluminum frames, we've got PVC frames, thermally broken aluminum frames, and then timber and then a timber and aluminum frame. And if we talk about the performance between the two, if we had all of the glass the same specs. If the glass was the same across all the frames we will get a difference in performance. The difference in performance is gonna come down to specifically the frame itself. So if we then go to it and we look at it, timber is really the, it's the best performing product. And that's where we will definitely start in relation to performance. So timbers up there. Then PVC is a really close second. From then we have thermally broken aluminum and then obviously, conventional aluminum that's not thermally broken. And just to give a quick understanding around the difference between thermally broken and non-thermally broken aluminum is that in the thermally broken aluminum frame, the inside aluminum does not come into contact with the outside aluminum. So as you can imagine because aluminum is a metal, it absorbs temperature. If it's hot, it'll get hot. If it's cold, it will get cold. And so lots of people like, oh yeah buy my double glazed windows but I'm gonna put them in an aluminum frame that's not thermally broken. So all you're doing is literally allowing that frame to sit and bake in the sun and just transfer heat straight through the frame. Again, who cares what type of glass you have?

- Yeah, it doesn't yeah.

- It's sort of it's all encompassing where we need to have a window frame that seals but then we also need a frame type that actually performs well as well. Ultimately, like I said PVC is great performing, timber is sort of a little bit better but you have to look after timber. You have to look after it, sometimes I have to sing to it and oil it up just so that it lasts. And I will say that I'm probably the biggest fan of PVC because it's great performing, it's really cost-effective and there's no maintenance and we can make it look like timber or aluminum. So to me, it's a really versatile product. So is one better than the other? Well, yes 'cause we're gonna talk about the performance of that and hopefully get an understanding which one is gonna perform better. But then I guess there's an element of then functionality around those windows. From our point of view, all of our windows will perform the same. Like they'll open the same way and close the same way. So to me, it more comes down to a decision around the frame type.

- That's really interesting James just I suppose things that you wouldn't take into consideration 'cause like my husband Andy - he's the builder and I'm not. So I would just think when you're talking about windows, I'll choose the double glazed not considering those, taking those other factors into consideration. So it's a really good way to think about things. So, as you said then choosing the frame and making sure that that's the first port of call and then the glass is further down the line. So the glass then does that incorporate then whether it's double glazed or triple glazed? Can you talk about the benefits around that then?

- Think about our fridge. Now we all know, we tell our kids all the time, close the fridge door because you're gonna allow the cold air in and it's gonna cost us more money. So we always make sure that the window, sorry the fridge is sealed. Who cares if it's insulated if it's not sealed properly or closed properly. So it first starts on the seals, then it starts talking about the actual insulation portions of it and that's where the glass plays a part. The way you look at it is every single panel of glass that you're going to have inside of that window is just added insulation into the window itself.

- What things should homeowners then potentially consider when selecting windows for that comfort and enjoyment? Obviously, we've talked about frames and the seals and the insulation, what's the bigger things to consider I suppose.

- The whole idea behind comfort and having, I will say there's a difference between double-glazed windows and high-performance windows. A high-performance window is going to be properly sealed, a frame that's properly insulated as well, and it might have double glazing or potentially triple glazing in it. Whereas on the other hand, it's just two panels of glass in a window frame. So there is, to me a really big distinction between double glazing and high-performance windows. The whole idea behind upgrading your windows is to me, the most important thing, it really comes down to energy efficiency. And the whole idea behind energy efficiency is that we use less energy in our space. And let's be honest, the cost of electricity I believe is absolutely ludicrous. It is just horrendous.

- Yes.

- And look, I'm a big fan of solar but I do also feel like when it comes to solar, all we're doing is enabling people to not change their consumption habits but to just pay less for it. So the idea behind having an insulated house with great performing windows is that we use less energy We use our heater less, we use our air conditioner less. And as a result of that, that then reflects back onto our energy bills. But it also comes down to the fact that when we've got high performance windows, we can have our space quieter. And I think that's a huge attribute when in the world that we live in right now, let's be honest, who wants to listen to their neighbors have a party? We have lots of like paramedics and shift workers as clients, because yes, there's a legal requirement that says you can't make noise between 7:00 AM and or 7:00 PM and 7:00 AM the next day. But there are plenty of people that sleep during that period of time or they have dogs or they have motorbikes, our neighbors. So why is it that we should not be comfortable in our own space? Where we have to turn the radio up, we have to turn the TV up just to drown out all the other noise. More so then that, because we've got extra glass panels and we've got a window system that's sealed properly, it's more secure as well.

- The noise reduction, the comfort to know that you're safe and secure in your home and then obviously the all important one, the energy efficiency. So, really lots of things that people really don't think like you said - somebody is getting a renovation and wants to install and specific windows is somebody really putting that thought into it? No, they're probably just thinking, I wanted to let. I want to have a window to let this much light in or I wanted to suit the style of my home but not actually putting the further thought into it to really see what the effects of that good choice at the beginning can have later on down the line. Fantastic, fantastic words of wisdom there James and again, as you said it's just the long-term effects. It's not just the short term. You're getting your renovation done and this is what we need to do now. It's thinking about that future and future-proofing your home really, and your home and for yourself as well and your family and whoever else that that might particularly effect. So there's many varieties of windows and door openings that you can have, whether that's potentially fixed glass to sliding windows and bi-fold doors, awning windows. So can you share some thoughts on that and talk us through some of those James, please?

- Absolutely. So, one of the thing, I guess probably the one of the most common sort of window systems and sort of door systems are sliding systems. And this is a conversation that usually comes up because people love the functionality behind having a door or a window that's there that you can literally just pull across, have whatever airflow you want coming through it and it really doesn't sort of protrude into the room. So it's really user-friendly in a sense. But the biggest issue around sliding is again, coming back to my first point is it's really difficult to make a window or door system seal properly when you have one fixed panel and one sliding panel that never come into contact with each other. So that's one of the really important things to consider. So there's always going to be a compromise. I will tell you there's no perfect fix and I'm sure you would understand that. Whenever you're doing any renovation whenever be doing any build, anything, there's always an element of compromise. You will not get everything that you want.

- Correct.

- And so you need to be able to weigh up what is more important to you in those situations. So in saying that it's not impossible to have a sliding system that seals properly. But obviously understanding that if one does seal the engineering, the hardware that goes into it is probably going to be more costly than one that doesn't seal, obviously. I love a sliding system but again, it needs to seal properly. And that's really common as well with bi-folds 'cause you can imagine with bi-fold doors we've got like four or five, six, sometimes seven doors. And if you can imagine those doors need to open nicely but they also need to properly seal. And most of the time people get more upset about the doors banging and hitting each other than actually caring about the fact that they're drafty. And so again, there's this sort of compromise because you're using it and feeling it, it doesn't feel right. So people will make sure that they'll change the frame to make it easier to move but therefore compromise on the seals. And so like from a user-friendly point of view, I think what sells is what's user-friendly not what's always practical. If we think about awning window that's obviously a window system that will sort of push out from the bottom and push out. So, which is I think okay. But depending on the system of the frame, ultimately, I'm not a huge fan of them to be honest because to me, I love the ability of airflow. And if we think about a window that sort of pushes out from the inside out, any air that hits the window is just gonna circulate back out. We don't actually get that much air flow. We only ever get the small amount of air flow that comes in underneath the window. So airflow to me is really important. And yes, you will get some but you probably won't get as much as what you might if you were using a sliding system for example. Or what's becoming really popular now is what's called tilt and turn windows. Where windows will rather than pushing out from the bottom, they'll actually tilt in from the top.

- Yes and they can go this way as well

- Into the room a little bit. Exactly. And if we just sort of compare an awning window versus a tilt window, you actually get more airflow coming from a tilt window than that of an awning window, even though they open the same. But it's all about science. If it's tilting in, any air that hits the window is just gonna follow the wind air straight into the house. I can show some cross-sections of some different systems that we have available on our window system here. The windows, our sort of windows works if you can imagine like an L shape. So we can see, this is the frame. This will be attached into the wall and then this is obviously what holds the glass. The window will open, but it has a double seal on it. And we can obviously with the square boxes we can see those rubber gaskets that are there. 'Cause important when we talk about seals is we need to make sure that those seals are rubber. Because if they're rubber, they will actually work just like the fridge does. So then over here we have what's called an entry obviously, an entry door and we can see that it is sealed as well. Generally, this is where, underneath the door is where we get the most amount of air leaks. So again, our door works a little bit like an L shape where it come up and seal up against the bottom threshold but also seal up on the top of it. And then over here we have a sliding door. So it's not impossible to have a sliding system that's sealed but again, it is quite difficult to do. And this situation we can see, we've got two seals on it. That sliding door is completely 100% sealed when it's closed. Another thing to point out is obviously, when we talk about sealing, how important is to have like multiple points of locking. So if we look at this window over here, we can see with the green dots that that is where we have all those locks. And as a result of that, coming back again everything is full circle is if one of those locks is obstructed, the other locks will actually pull the window in and actually seal it off. Because there's been plenty of times where you have a window that will grab somewhere, but you've got a gap up the top and you've got a gap down the bottom. So by having multiple points of locking it's again gonna be more secure and it's going to stop the air leaks, and as a result or stopping air leaks it's gonna stop the heat and cooling costs. And as a result of that as well, it's gonna reduce the noise.

- So it's all one good effect?

- Exactly, right. Like they all compliment each other. And so you need to have all these things in place in order to, at the end of the day get a window system or a door system that's actually gonna work really well for you.

- Great knowledge and really valuable information there James, thank you. And I suppose my next question is the Australian standards and building codes require various glass types in different areas of your home. So are you able to talk us about that 'cause homeowners don't understand that that you have to use particular glass on for example bathrooms as opposed to your living room and things like that are used. Do you have much information on that?

- Yeah. I think the first thing we need to start is understanding what is considered safety glass. 'Cause generally in specific areas, the building codes or Australian standards come out and say, look, we need to have grade-A safety glass. In specific areas and depending on where it is, it will change but ultimately, we need to know what safety glass is. The first thing to consider is that there's ultimately there's sort of two types of safety glasses. Both of them are safety, but they are quite different. So the very first thing and it might be easier again, if I show you my screen. Over here we have what's called a laminated glass. And what laminated glass is, is two panels of glass that have actually been stuck together with a layer of plastic. Now I will say that lots of people will interpret this as being double glazing, but it's not. Yes, it is two individual panels of glass but they stuck together to make one panel of glass. And that film in between, that layer of plastic is what makes it safe. 'Cause as you can imagine, and it's probably easier to explain it in relation to a car. Where the front windshield of your car is laminated glass. So if a rock comes up off of another car, hits the front windshield. Yes, the windshield will crack but it won't fall out. And I'm sure you would have experienced it plenty of times. You're like, oh, there's a crack in the windshield and you touch it and you're like, I can't feel it. And then you go to the other side and you touch it and you're like, oh, that's where it is. Because again, you've broken one of those panels of glass but not the second one. Whereas if it didn't have that plastic and a rock came up and cracked it, that crack would just fall through it and literally you would have massive glass shards just falling straight out of the car. The other type of safety glass it's what's called toughened glass. Now this type of glass is as the name entails it is tougher than standard glass. So what happens, it actually gets baked or in some situations it gets boiled. And as a result of this process, it makes the glass now at least four times stronger than standard glass. And what that will do then is obviously, it will take a lot more impact. So if you can imagine being safety glass if you come and you accidentally hit it or run into it, it's gonna stay intact. However, it's obviously not indestructible. So the first thing to consider around toughened glass is yes, it's stronger and it is great because it's more flexible than glass.

- But then if it's a big enough impact, it will break.

- Correct. But it also depends on the type of impact. So I can tell you that toughened glass about a meter span, if we have it lying down, it will flex 70 millimeters. So will take a lot of flexing. So it's also great I think for really sort of security aspects 'cause someone can literally swing a hammer at it and it will actually bend and flex and absorb a lot of that pressure. But yes, as I mentioned it's not indestructible and what happens because it's been toughened now, when it gets to that point where it can't hold its shape anymore, it will shatter into a billion pieces. And you probably would have seen that on road somewhere as well from car accidents. Where there's just tiny, tiny pieces billions and billions of tiny little glass pieces everywhere. Because all of the other windows in the car are toughened glass. So the front windshield is laminated but the rest of them are toughened. And the idea behind making it safer is that yes, it will take more impact but on top of that, when it breaks, it will diversify and sort of spread out its surface area. So yes, there's millions or billions of pieces, but because they're so tiny, yes, you might get cut from them but it's only really gonna be a little graze. So you might get lots of little cuts the issue really is around standard glass when it breaks, we're talking about large shards of glass. You don't know where it's happening and literally people like sort of impaling themselves on it. And that's when you get really deep sort of really like nasty cuts. Whereas this is just really insignificant to an extent little cuts. And that's what then makes it safe because it's all about stopping someone from getting hurt. Bathrooms, wet areas need to have safety glass which I find a little bit interesting but it is what the code is. Like if a window is quite high, the likelihood of you hurting yourself on that window is pretty slim. But it's still what the regulation is so we obviously will comply with that. Any windows below a specific height need to be a safety glass. Any doors for example, generally always need to be safety glass. And so, it will come down to in specific areas what type of glass you need and when you're obviously considering double glazing and you need safety glass, you need to understand that now you need two panels of safety glass, on the outside and on the inside. So keeping in mind there is obviously gonna be a bit more of a cost associated because a safety glass is obviously gonna cost more than a standard panel or glass.

- Is there anything else that you'd like to share with us today that you think homeowners would like to know about?

- Yeah, I mean we've talked a lot about the frames. We've talked a lot about different glass types as well. But there is still some really key things to look at when you're considering different window companies and the value that you're gonna get from them. And that comes down to like special coatings on the glass that will make them more energy efficient, and then also the gas that's between the panels of glass. Both super important when it comes to the longevity of your windows and sort of the long-term performance of your windows. The very first thing I will sort of talk about is probably the gas. As you can imagine, I'm sure you would experience it plenty of times before. You have a cold glass of water, you pour it into a glass and you get water condensation on the outside of it. 'Cause condensation is a huge issue when it comes to windows. When we've got really stark temperature variations from outside to inside. And the problem with condensation is that water obviously will help to grow bugs. And we're seeing, you'd be surprised how often we're walking into people's homes and we're changing their windows over because most amount of conversation that you get is generally in your bedroom. Because while you sleeping, you're letting off gases and you're letting off moisture in your air from your breath and that's when we see really stark temperature variation. And as a result of water on your windows, we start growing mold. And mold is not safe for us to be breathing and that it's growing in the spaces that we are sleeping. Like we're spending what eight hours in generally our rooms minimum per night. And to think that we've got literally windows that are now making us sick. So really important to consider the type of gas we have between the panels of glass. Because that different gases will actually help to reduce or sometimes eliminate the risk of condensation. So what's really common obviously, for us to get two panels of glass, sort of put them inside of a frame and just have standard pressurized, standard air that we're breathing. And that's really where you're going to get probably the largest risk of condensation, but also in saying that you will risk condensation between the panels of glass. If you can imagine when we get condensation, it builds up enough, it will start streaking and that water droplets will start running. And if it's in between the panels of glass, like you're not gonna be able to clean it.

- No.

- So really important to have a glazing system that is sealed as well. So the window frame has to seal, but the glass components have to seal as well. Now generally, if we sort of upgrade from air it's usually the next step up is what's called argon gas. And people do freak out around argon they're like, oh, it's pressurized with a gas. Is it gonna explode? What happens if it escapes? Like if someone breaks the windows, is it gonna explode on me? Whatever. Ultimately, no to all of those things. Argon is the third highest concentration of gas in our atmosphere. So we're breathing on every breath that we take. So no issues around it, health implications or anything like that. But because it's denser than air, it's what it does is obviously makes the window more energy efficient as well. 'Cause it stops the amount of heat that comes through the window. In the summertime, the heat transfers through the window but also in the winter time the heat escaping out the window. So having it pressurized with a gas will help to make it more energy efficient, eliminate the risks of condensation but also than that will also help towards making your windows quieter as well.

- Yes. Oh my goodness.

- Because if I show you this slide, sound does not travel as quick through argon as it does through air. So people like, oh argon making my windows quieter? I was like, actually, yes. Because it's denser. It will make the window quieter. The other thing obviously talking about what's inside the glass is picking a specific coating on the glass and this is something that's not spoken about very often. I will actually say this panel of glass is the best kept secret when it comes to double glazing. The best kept secret. So insider trading right here is what we're talking about. Because this panel glasses is rarely ever specified but it makes a huge difference in the performance of the window. I can literally show that there are results, I have results to show that one single panel of this glass can work better than two panels of glass in the double glazed system. So you might be thinking, everyone's coming out there as windows suppliers. They're gonna say, yeah buy my windows. They're double glazed, they're gonna solve all your problems. Then it's like but hang on. I can get better results from one single panel of glass. So why would I purchase two panels of glass if I can get better results from one. I mean, there's other results obviously, you won't get as much sound reduction whatever else but it I'm sort of stressing how important this one panel the glass is. And there's lots of different names for it, depending on the company. There's terms like comfort glass or energy efficient glass but ultimately, the term is a low-e glass.

- Low-e glass.

- Low-e. It stands for low emissivity. I can't say the word. So that's why most people say e.

- It's not know it, it's just too hard to say Yeah exactly. So just it's low-e because it's just easier that way. It's easy to say e than emissivity I think the word is. And what it is to an extent is a film that's on the glass. Easiest way to explain how it works is it works like tinting. We all know what tinting does to glass. It stops the amount of heat that comes through it. But the difference with tinting is that tinting darkens the glass. Whereas the low-e coating will like reflect a lot of that heat, but it won't darken the glass. So sort of two panels of glass both of them double glazed and understand light obviously coming through them because light travels in three sort of three forms, it comes in infrared, that's the heat that we get. It comes in visible light, that's what we see and it comes in UV and that's the damaging stuff. That's the stuff that gives us skin cancers. That's the stuff that will damage our floors. And the idea behind having this coating on it is that it will flex a lot of that back out. But in obviously in the other way, in the winter time will reflect it back in. Whereas, just standard glass allows a lot of that to come through. So yeah, really important that this one coating like I said one single panel of it can out perform two panels of glass in double glaze system. Like it is super imperative to have it. Anyone comes to us looking for a window and you don't even ask me about these things. You're gonna get a window that has low-e glass. It's gonna have argon gas, it's gonna be completely sealed and it's gonna be well insulated. Because that should be the standard.

- For people to have the comfort as you've talked about before. So make sure that they've got superior comfort within their homes.

- Exactly right. And is why it's important to be able to distinguish like where's the value that you're getting? What value are you actually getting for the amount of money that you're putting towards it? Now we've talked about all these things but I do think the easiest way like for people to understand when it comes to performance is to look at a couple of values and you should be able to get these values from the window supplier. But I think this is the, like if I'm gonna equip your clients or tell people how they're gonna get this value, it literally comes down from a couple of figures. And I'm sure most people understand the difference between an R value. When we talk about insulation, we talk about an R-value. So the higher the R-value, the better performing the better insulator that material is. When it comes to windows and doors it's a little bit different. It's the reverse of that. So rather than being R-value, it's called a U-value. And the idea behind the U-value is that the U-value measures the amount of heat that transfers through the window. So it's theoretically the less heat that transfers through the window, the better performing that window is. So we wanna look through really low numbers here. So, you might see some energy calculators or whatever else and they're specifying windows with a U-value of say four. 'Cause I will say it's sort of zero to infinity. Not that anyone obviously is up that high but most, I guess if you're considering most sort of single glazed windows are probably somewhere between three to six on the U-value scale. But obviously understanding everything that the lower that is, again the better performing that it is. And then if you considered like most sort double glazed windows are probably sitting around maybe a 2.5 or something like this.

- What about the e window that were, the window that you were talking about a few minutes ago? Where would that sit at?

- So, from our point of view, a window that's completely sealed, a window that has argon gas in it, that's double-glazed and has low-e glass, we're getting values really similar to about a 1.4.

- Wow, very good.

- Which are really, really high, high performing windows to the point where we can actually if we were to triple glaze that for example, that will probably drop to about a 1.1, but we can even get results under one. Thing is we have plenty of energy assessors that we speak to. And then it's just as ultimately just have they have an Excel spreadsheet, they pump some information into it, it spits them out saying, yeah, it works or no, it doesn't. And I have one of the calculators that some of the energy assessors use. And when I put the information of our windows in there, it actually comes up with an error code. It actually spits out and says, windows with this performance value are unrealistic.

- So definitely Oknalux ones.

- And I'm just like, wow, for us to have windows actually perform that bad you probably have to break a panel of glass. And this is where most of the information is coming from. Most of the information around what you need to put into your houses comes from your energy assessor, your builder, and your architect. Most of them have no idea about windows. There's a point where-

- Window supplier then to be able to 'cause they're the specialists I suppose.

- Exactly, right. But I will also say that there are plenty of windows suppliers that don't give you low-e. And they're plenty of window suppliers that will say don't buy double glazing 'cause it's not worth it. Don't buy low-e glass because it's not worth it. Don't put in argon gas because it's not worth it. Don't buy triple glazing 'cause it's not worth it. And the reason, or don't buy PVC windows because aluminum's better or don't buy aluminum because timber's better. Like everyone is gonna give you every reason to only purchase what they have available. Because it's easier to discredit that because you don't have it. And that's why I do what I do.

- Now, you're definitely, right James, the information that you've provided today as I said, it's just beyond valuable because people now have this information. They can really make an informed decision whenever they're approaching whatever window supplier it is, that they know, they're equipped now with the questions to ask and like that if things aren't lining up for them, then they understand then potentially those specific windows they don't supply them and it gives them then the option of going elsewhere and not trusting that one person and what they say. It's giving them the education to assist with that. So that's fantastic, thank you. If people obviously come to us with different budgets in mind and for somebody to really have low budget, middle range budget, or high-end budget if what could you advise the best windows? If this is even a question that can be asked for each of the different budget ranges.

- Again, it comes down to perception. And to me, I ultimately feel like if you're having to purchase windows anyway, purchase ones that are gonna give you more value. I mean budget's one thing that we can really work with. You'd be quite surprised actually how economical we can be. I've talked about all these wonderful things and for most people they're like, oh, that's like the top end. And yes, it is the top end but that doesn't always, like the price doesn't always merit that. For us, our goal has always been that this is a product that is a basic necessity. This is not a luxurious product. For us it was always about bringing a product that is accessible to everyone because it's a basic need. Everyone has a basic need to be comfortable in their own space. But obviously understanding that generally, to have something that's a bit better does cost a little bit more. So when it comes to budget, I would definitely be recommending PVC. Because if we compare our different frame types, PVCs are most economical and is great performing. So that's definitely where I would start. And I will also say that there's a big distinction between a window and a door. They are two very different things. They work the same way but they're functionally different. A door you can walk in and out of a door let's say potentially 100, 200 times a day. Whereas a window, how often would you open and close a window? Maybe once or twice a day, maybe once or twice a week to an extent. So the engineering that has to go into both of them is very different. Obviously understanding generally, doors are much larger than windows as well. So the infrastructure to make sure that it works nicely and seals properly and everything else, so doors are always going to be more expensive. When it comes to windows, there's plenty of things that we can do around windows. We can talk about the design, we can compliment that. Color will also play a part in the price. There's different things that we can do around that but there's so much flexibility that you'd be surprised how we can change a couple things to really fit within someone's budget as well. Keeping in mind that we're talking about a long-term investment into our homes. So yes, there's an economic decision right now but there's an economic decision in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years time. Always get high-performance windows because you'd be surprised how economical they can be.

- This conversation with you has been fantastic because there's so many even aspects of windows that I didn't even know and I'm sure if that's the case, then there's plenty of homeowners aren't aware of these things to consider either. And it's I feel very valuable all of the information that you've shared with us today James. I think that it's gonna really help people make better and more informed decisions about choosing their windows, their doors for their homes. Whether that's for a renovation or a new build. And it's for that forward thinking and the potential that the longevity of it as opposed to just in the now and what it's going to look like and how much it's gonna cost now, it's planning for your future. So look, James, thank you so much for all of that information and sharing with us today. Although you're based in South Australia, you provide to the whole of Australia. So if anybody is interested, any of our homeowners are interested in your products how can we get in touch with you?

- Look, it's super easy. You can just literally jump on our website. I mean, there's contact details there. You can leave your details on there and get us to call you back. You can literally book an appointment with one of our guys straight off our website if you want.

- Even I've had a look at your website it's brilliant even to show the different types of windows and doors that we have been talking about earlier and lots of product information and so it's really fantastic. So, listen James, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it and I'm sure any of our homeowners that have been listening today as well will appreciate that valuable insight into choosing your windows and doors. So thank you very much.